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tv   Prime News  HLN  July 28, 2009 5:00pm-7:00pm EDT

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a source now says it was dr. conrad murray who gave michael jackson the powerful i.v. diprivan just hours before his death. and today drug agents raided murray's home and clinic. do they have the goods to bring criminal charges? and people who text while driving, they could be 23 times more likely to crash. just seconds glancing down, it's like driving the length of a football field blind. a deadly habit. and it has to stop. i want to hear from you on those topics, and. the number 1-877-tell-hln. e-mail me. c cnn.com/primenews. your chance to be heard.
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-- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com welcome. this is "prime news." i'm mike galanos. two big developments in the michael jackson case. first in las vegas, just hours ago drug agents with search warrants in hand went into dr. conrad murray's home and clinic. the home you see here is on the left. quite the estate there. on the right, the office. it looks like the walls could be closing in on dr. murray. last night a source close to the investigation confirmed it was murray who gave jackson a powerful anesthetic in those very last hours of michael jackson's life. joining me now to talk about this, anita kay, former prosecutor. back with us, jim moret, chief correspondent "inside edition." he's an attorney. former cnn anchor. and a bort certified anesthesiologist. we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. all right, anita, if dr. murray
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gave michael jackson propofol in his home, and we find out that's the main cause of his death, how is he not facing a manslaughter charge? >> mike, i think he could be facing a manslaughter charge, based on that. because if they can rule that cause of death was due to cardiac arrest, which is then due to this anesthetic being administered, there's a strong possibility he could be charged with manslaughter. it's what we call criminal negligence. basically he should have known better, to put it in layman's terms, he should have known better that this drug could cause death. it's used off-label. we talked about it. it should be administered in a hospital setting, not at home. as well as what doctors would typically administer this drug. and what safeguards. i understand there were oxygen tanks. usually when you have anesthesia and the doctor can obviously talk about this, there needs to
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be ventilators. there are proper procedures that need to be in place. any doctor that is not following that, can be held liable and perhaps in the criminal arena be found guilty. >> let's go to the doctor. if someone is on propofol, what monitoring has to be in place? >> well, definitely you're going to have to have what we always use as anesthesiologists is a standard asma monitors, such as blood pressure, a pulse ox imter to monitor the blood oxygenation, ekg monitoring, carbon dioxide to monitor the patient is adequately breathing. those are necessary while administering this medication. >> there's no way, doctor, that could be done safely and following all precautions in a home setting? >> no. there's actually no indication for propofol or diprivan to be used outside the hospital, or an ambulatory surgery center setting. >> let's bring in jim moret. jim, this is the "if," if the
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cause of death, mainly is propofol and it is murray would gave it to him hours before his death, how do you fight that if you're dr. murray? >> i think one way you fight it is probably not going to be as simple as one drug that killed him. if you look at the anna nicole case, you had a virtual cocktail of drugs, where any one drug might not have caused death. and perhaps the propofol would not have alone caused jackson's death. but jackson could have been taking with or without this knowledge other drugs. this doctor might say, wait a minute, his exact words, i'm the last doctor standing when michael jackson died. there were other doctors involved. i wasn't made aware of the other medications he was taking. he could say he didn't get the propofol for him. he didn't actually give it to him. he was simply monitoring him. there are a lot of different things he could use as defenses. however, i suspect that dr. murray will just be one of several doctors who are named ultimately when charges are filed. >> a couple things to hit on
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there. let me go back to the doctor. doctor, can just propofol, can it be the cause of death? what is the likelihood that is the cause of death alone? >> propofol in and of itself is a very powerful anesthetic. and the way that it can lead to death is that basically it stops the patient from breathing. so in and of itself, yes, can cause somebody to stop breathing, which will lead to hypoxia, which is decreased oxygen in the blood, and then the cardiac arrest. with, you know, propofol alone, that can definitely cause death. if you add other medications into the mix, antidepressants, or anti-anxiety medications or opiate medications, they all have a synergistic relationship to add onto the depressant effects of the medication. >> if someone has been administered propofol, you have to watch them, right? you can't leave the -- doesn't somebody have to be monitoring, either they're monitored by machine or someone really machine number one, someone who
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have to be overseeing them, crest? >> you have to monitor them with our world, it's a board certified anesthesiologist monitoring the patient second-to-second. because in the world of anesthesia, things can go south very quickly. >> wow. that's sobering right there, just to hear that. let's get a call in real quick. marcia in pennsylvania, your thoughts here? >> caller: my question is, the 911 call, they said that michael collapsed. but if he was given diprivan, then one would assume he would be laying down, so my question -- i find that shady. and my question is, what's with that? >> that's a great question. jim, that changes the game a little bit, doesn't it? to our caller's point. because we all question, well, how are you giving someone cpr on a bed if you're a doctor?
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that leads to that, if he was being administered propofol, he would be sleeping on a bed and he never would have gotten up, right? >> this is the problem so far that the investigators face. it's the time line issue. we know from the doctor's own words that he didn't call 911 for 20 to 30 minutes. the question is, was there a time before that that he also should have called 911. how long was this doctor actually working on michael jackson? did he collapse? was he up? was he awake at any time? was he -- did he simply never wake up? those are things that dr. murray really can answer, and only dr. murray can answer them, because he was there at the time. so there's simply things -- it's a very good call. an excellent question. but we simply don't really know the answer yet. >> we're going to take a quick break, guys. more of your calls, questions, coming up, 1-877-tell-hln is the phone number. as we continue to delve into this, a raid today on dr. murray's home and clinic in las vegas. what were they looking for?
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welcome back to "prime news" on hln. continuing our conversation, the latest in the michael jackson death investigation may turn criminal. an e-mail from a.j. in florida. dr. murray was wrong in giving michael jackson that drug. he should be charged with more to give his kids and to the world. we'll take your calls as well, 1-877-tell-hln. anita, i want to pick up on something jim said a couple of minutes ago, talking about what defenses dr. murray may have, that he may be the last in a long line of doctors who administered that. i look at it, like a game of
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russian roulette, if this happened. murray was the last in line, he pulled the propofol trigger. your thoughts? >> you're picking up on something. i don't know if you've gone to law school recently, but involuntary manslaughter, that does not have to be the only cause of death, the diprivan. there can be other causes, and someone would still be guilty of involuntary manslaughter if in fact what they did caused a substantial factor in the death. so there could be ten other drugs, and maybe ten other people charged, but if the diprivan was what was a substantial factor and dr. murray was the one who administered that, you can get him on the involuntary manslaughter. >> jim, do we still look back in trying to dig up the doctors who may have administered it in the past? and from your angle, as you're seeing this, how does that factor in when murray, even his attorneys said basically he's the last guy. he's only been with michael
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jackson a few months here. >> i think it's likely that investigators are doing two things. they're looking, one, clearly for the cause of death, and those people responsible for it. if someone is deemed responsible for it. and secondly, they're also looking at abuses in prescription drugs, and that could go back years. with anna nicole, there were charges filed in her case more than a year after she died. none of them involved murder or manslaughter. all of them were dealing with conspiracy, and drug abuse charges. you have doctors here, multiple doctors. i was told by one doctor who's close to this investigation that 19 doctors are being investigated now. and there are more than 11 aliases. that's a lot of doctors, a lot of people involved, and this one doctor said he expects some of those investigated to start falling like dominos. >>. the difference between anna nicole and michael jackson is possibly the one drug that could be the main cause, with anna nicole we understand it was a cocktail. with michael jackson, it could
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be as well. but diprivan could be the main cause, right? >> but with michael jackson, we also heard dr. murray's attorney make it very clear that his client, dr. murray, did not give michael jackson demerol or oxycontin. that led us to believe early on that those were two of the drugs that they were looking into, because they were two of the drugs that michael jackson was believed to be using. and may in fact have been using. so there may be, and there are expected to be more than one drug, that diprivan, though, is the big drug. the reason why that's so big is you can't get a prescription for it. as the doctor said, you can't use it at home and clearly that's what was being done here. >> it seemed so irresponsible at the least to give that in a home setting, knowing the dangers. as we talked to the doctor about that, what you need to do to monitor somebody. oxygen levels in the blood, heart rate, not something you can do at home effectively. guys, we're going to have to sure we'll talk
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again soon. here's one that will get your attention, texting while driving. you may have done it yourself, and you've seen others do it. new drivers texting while driving, 23 times more likely to get in a wreck. we can't help ourselves on one hand, yet it could be a deadly habit on the other. we have to do something. call in, 1-877-tell-hln.
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we've all seen people doing it. you may have done it yourself, admit it, tebs thing while driving. you've seen the people, one hand on the wheel, one hand looking at the phone there. they can't put the blackberry down. i've done it. scared the heck out of me. i'm thinking to myself, what are you doing? you've probably been there yourself. it's hard not to take a peek at that message. but we have to stop. why? new frightening numbers out showing how dangerous this can be. let's go to a fellow texter, she's a maniac with this stuff.
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admit it. >> you called me out just like that? i know, it's true. this study hopefully will -- >> it will wake us all up. >> when you're doing it, you're telling yourself, stop doing it. a new study finds drivers who are texting could be 23 times more likely to wreck than those who are not. researchers from virginia tech phones. looking down. football field. the institute has recommended banned. states. 14 states. debate will rage, mike, about whether or not that's the way to go.
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we can all agree that maybe we can at least voluntarily stop doing it. how about that? >> richelle, i want to show everybody, you as well, how this can play out. it was a story we did -- it was a guy driving a bus. june of 2000 -- remember that? i believe we have the video. there he is going for the cell phone. he's going to do some texting. he's driving disabled people. what happened? you see right there. looked down for one second. you're going 30, 40 miles an hour. 55 in the example richelle used. next thing you have a crash. the lady in the car ahead of him still battling neck and head injuries. that's how quick an accident can take place. let's bring in our guests now. steve kardian, former police detective, motorcycle officer. he's seen what folks can do out there. also with us, ann mccart for the insurance institute for highway institute. stacy kaiser, a psychotherapist
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steve, let me start with you. you've been on the roads. does that number strike you, 23 times greater, or do you expect that? >> mike, i wouldn't expect it to be that high, but i've got to start by saying i've investigated serious and fated al accidents by people dialing their phone, talking on their phone, reaching for their phone, and texting with their phone. it is a problem for sure. >> ann, as we look at this, that crash risk, so much greater. can we use this, and do we need the ban across this country? it seems so with those numbers. >> i think based on the research, it makes a lot of sense to ban cell phone use and texting. i think the challenge, however, is to be able to enforce those laws, to really get drivers to hang up. >> steve, how do we enforce that? that's a great point. people, as we note, know it's wrong, know it's dangerous, still do it. they're going to be doing it out there. how do we enforce it? >> i think this study is going to prompt legislation both on the local, state and federal
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predominant group using texting right now. >> it would seem to me, ann, in california they have a ban. but the penalty just isn't that great. i think first offense is 20 bucks. 50 bucks after that. really punitive. highway safety that passing a law is not a law has to be enforced, it has to be publicized. drivers don't believe there's a consequence of disobeying a law, they're not going to obey it. i think that's a challenge with a lot of these telecommunications devices. >> ann, what is the stiffest penalties of the 14 states of texting and driving? penalty point on a license -- your relative to some other offenses, the penalties are pretty light. >> okay. let's get a call in real quick.
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laurie in florida, your thoughts here? laurie? not with us. all right. let's get stacy in. we know it's wrong. why do we do it? teenagers, 87% know it's wrong, 68% do it anyway. that's probably the way it is with all of us, those kind of numbers. what's with us? >> i think there's really two main reasons. we americans have lost the ability to wait for the interaction. read what the person whole other piece dealing with why the legislature stuff doesn't week. what people need is a real consequence. until people are actually impacted by texting with a crash or loved one getting hurt, they're not going to stop. >> we want to hear from you on this, call in, 1-877-tell-hln.
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back to "prime news" on hln. you're looking at a u.s. citizen, right there, father, guy you would think would be living the american dream, running his own business. now he's accused of training terrorists right near his home in north carolina. even allegedly indoctrinating his own sons in the violent jihad. america. men, could be an eighth out there. we'll take your calls on this one. 1-877-tell-hln is the number. we want to still know, what's going to happen to this little girl who police say was brutally gang raped in phoenix by four boys. their ages, 9 to 14. they're accused of luring her into a storage shed with bubble
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gum. she's 8. then they took turns sexually assaulting her. the dilemma right now, her own family initially shunned her. the family and the suspects all from liberia. in liberia, rape was not a crime until 2006. last week the girl's mom went on camera saying the attack never happened. the dad first told them to take her away. today we learned the state is keeping the little girl in foster care for at least another three months. we have our expert panel standing by on this one. steve kardian. paul pen zone, a former phoenix detective. he's also a director at child help for victims of child abuse. also with us, anita kay, defense attorney, former prosecutor. and thelma gutierrez joins us by phone reporting from phoenix. thelma's on the ground there. thelma, give us the full update. what is the latest with this little 8-year-old victim? >> reporter: mike, i can tell you right now what we've heard
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is the little girl is in foster care. she's been removed from the home until experts can go in, assess the family and determine whether or not it's safe enough to return her to that place. after all, they say that this is a child who went through this very terrible, traumatic experience, and to go into -- to return to a family that perhaps may shun her, may not believe her, would be absolutely terrible. so they are right now assessing the family. the father yesterday went with a liberian elder to meet with child protective services. it was the first meeting that they had had. and he says he's trying to get his daughter back. so a lot of different things happening with this family right now. >> thelma, clarify. i'm correct in saying when this initially happened, we were all appalled, because you would expect an 8-year-old to run into the arms of her family. she was shunned by all of her
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family members initially, right? >> reporter: mike, that was exactly right. when you think of something like this happening, who would you turn to? who do you expect that you can turn to for moral support? it would be your family. but according to the police, there were statements that were initially made right after the event, whereby they -- the police heard that the family did not want her back. now, the father said that that was not true. he said he does want his doctor back. he feels that it was more a question of language, and that it was misinterpreted. he says he's trying to get her back right now. but you're right, initially those reports were out there. >> yeah, because it was -- the sister said she brought trouble. the mom denied it ever happened. let's bring in paul penzone. works with child health here. paul, help us out here. you have to assess the family situation whether or not they're
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really ready to welcome her back with open arms or not. >> that's going to be left to the child protective services. what we do is focus solely on that little girl and her needs. although this case is quite polarizing, because it has such extreme circumstances. it's not so uncommon to other cases that we've seen that happen far too often. what we want to do is make sure that we focus on her needs first, and hope that the family, whatever their true position is, that eventually they'll come around and give her the support she needs so it's not the requirement of the state. >> paul, what could she be going through right now? we're talking about an 8-year-old victim. i can't imagine the feelings of loneliness, not to only go through the attack, but you're away from your family. >> the incident is so difficult to overcome. then you look at the circumstances where the one place she should feel safe, she's not getting that love and support. at least not at this time. that's where the child help steps in. our facility is designed specifically to give her that support knowing that the road
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back is going to be a long one. we'll never be able to remove that experience from her life experience, we hope we can teach her and love her enough to have a productive life going forward. >> and how do you factor in the cultural issues with this, paul? >> well, my position on the cultural issue, i recognize that they came from a culture where violence was prevalent. as humans, we have the innate understanding if we're harming another human, it's not okay. the only cultural position is how we make sure we can communicate with her in a manner that our expertise translates to her needs, therefore, she can heal more quick live. as a society, i think the culture of child abuse and sexual abuse for children is the issue we need to focus on as an entire society, not just in the microcosms. >> anita, how is the law going to sort this one out? if you're a family, the family's probably going to get a lawyer and say, that's our daughter, we want her back. but it may not be best, at least
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what we're seeing after the initial reaction. >> right. and now we're getting conflicting reports where the father is saying, oh, it was a misunderstanding, you know, language issue. but the reality is, we're trying to protect the 8-year-old girl. so even if maybe there is miscommunication, there are other reports saying, no, she was shunned from the family and they were ashamed of her. cps needs to get to the bottom of that. because this little girl needs so much to get through this. she will never completely get through this. this will be with her the rest of her life. so if she's to go back to the family, she's going to need counseling. are her parents going to be involved and take her to counseling? are there going to be cultural issues where that is not something that they will subscribe to? so we hear stories time and time again of kids going back, and something horrible happening. so we need to make sure that this child will be safe, if in fact she goes home. >> we've got to take a quick break. we'll talk to thelma again. she's been in that community.
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where the girl lived, and where the alleged incident took place. we'll talk to thelma about that. whether or not the family is the best place for this little girl. whether or not it's best. and also, the attackers. we're talking about 9 through 14-year-olds. what are they going through? what punishment should they face? call in with your thoughts.
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welcome back. you're a huge part of the show. i love hearing from you, love talking to you on the phone. call in, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. shoot us an e-mail, cnn.com/primenews. or text us at hlntv, the number 45688. all you have to do is start your message with the word prime. another way to get in on the conversation, become a fan of "prime news" on facebook. go behind the scenes with me, richelle, the rest of the "prime news" team. we'll let you know what stories we're working on, the angles we're taking. it's all there for you. more info at cnn.com/primenews. the brutal rape of an 8-year-old girl, the alleged attackers ages 9 through 14. and before we go on, what really grabbed us here is when the 8-year-old's family initially shunned her. we want to listen to, i believe it's her mom and her sister talking, this is right after the attack.
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>> there you have it. again, mom initially denied it ever happened. sister basically blaming the 8-year-old saying she brings trouble. let's bring back thelma gutierrez, from cnn. she is in phoenix. thelma, have you had a chance to go to the apartment complex and talk to some of the people who know of this incident who lived nearby the girl and where the incident took place? >> reporter: yes, i did, mike, i was there yesterday. and we went in with the liberian refugee, he also runs an organization to help refugees. when we went in, it was very interesting, because what he explained to us is that it's a very tightly knit community. these are people who call each other brother and sister. they're neighbors, brother and sister. and they raise each other's children as though they're their own. initially, when the children were -- the boys were arrested, the mother of the victim had come out and said that she
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wanted these boys released. she was actually at the perpetrators' home and consoling the mother. he explained to me that the reason that all of this happens is that they are very tightly knit. very close community. people there are tized by this event. they say they escaped liberia to get away from this type of situation, and yet they come to america where they believe they're going to have this dream life, and a terrible incident like this happens. >> what's the feeling in that community, thelma? do they blame the girl? >> reporter: mike, it was really interesting, because a few young men came up to us and they say we know the perpetrators. this could not have happened. there's no way this could have happened. and as a matter of fact, i believe that the family said that the child was not touched. and they basically said that
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medical experts had told them that nothing had happened to the little girl. we talked to police. and police said that that's absolutely not true. they have forensic evidence that that child was attacked. and so there are rumors that are circulating through the community, but within the neighborhood, there is a lot of sympathy for the perpetrators. on the other hand, you talk to people outside of that apartment complex, within the liberian community, loss of sympathy toward this little girl. as a matter of fact, mike, the liberian president was on the air, on cnn, on friday. and she said this is not cultural. if it is true that this happened, this is not cultural. this is a crime. >> there were reports that the four admitted that it had happened right afterward. i want to go to steve kardian, former police investigator. steve, how do you investigate in a case like this? what we want to know, let's get back to the beginning, is it
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going to be safe at some point for this 8-year-old girl to go back with her family and live in this community again? >> it's going to be very difficult, i think, for her to return to that environment right now, mike. the safety and well-being of that child is a primary consideration. i create instructors, and i have instructors in africa, and it's a very, very horrific and difficult process that they're going through right now with sexual assault. it's only been a crime since the year 2006, i believe. >> exactly. guys, thanks so much. great panel, great discussion on a very difficult topic. and coming up, authorities bust up an alleged terrorist training camp in north carolina. seven men have been arrested, and apparently they were trying to recruit others. the guy at the heart of this, when you see his picture, you're not going to believe it. he's running a drywall business. you wouldn't expect it. we'll take your calls on that 1-877-tell-hln.
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a terrorist training camp based in north carolina. yeah, an american father is accused of indoctrinating his own son and recruiting other men from raleigh to promote jihad abroad. 39-year-old daniel boyd lived inconspicuously in his home, trained terrorists on the side. so far, seven men have been arrested. the feds are serving for an eighth. although one, a u.s. citizen. we want to get to the bottom of this one. we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. joining us now, terrorism expert, robert strang, a former federal agent, now ceo of the investigative management group. also with us, stacy kaiser, psychotherapist. on the phone, rick martinez for wptz in raleigh. rick, let's start with you.
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what can you tell us about daniel boyd's story? where does his life, being a part of violent jihad, begin? rick? >> that's a question that we're trying to get to the bottom of. he has a very colorful history. including to the point of fighting for the -- against -- in afghanistan, against the soviet union back in, i guess this was back in the '80s. his wife confirmed that today. she put out a statement saying, for the people of north court. decent people. his two sons, dylan and zack rye a were indicted yesterday. >> okay. how did the arrest come about? how did they find out this guy was allegedly training and recruiting other terrorists? >> this was an operation that
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was three years in the making. the fbi is reported to have had an informant within this cell. i think one of the things that may have moved the fbi to move was that over the last six weeks, this group of men have been training in caswell county, which is probably an hour from where daniel boyd lives. it's a very rural county, sparsely populated. although it's purely conjecture, you know, it is one of the things that we've noticed here in raleigh, is that the president will be hearing about it tomorrow. so they moved. >> as well they should. is there an eighth out there? are they looking for an eighth? >> there is an eighth. in fact, he is believed to be in pakistan. however, local television station wral has identified him as a local wake county man. so again, even the person in
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pakistan, in which the u.s. attorney confirmed today that they are searching for, he appears to be a north carolina s were abroad, nothing in the u.s. that we know of, right? >> nothing we know of. interestingly enough when you take a look at the type of weapons that this cell had amassed, the vast majority of them are very, very hard to get out of the country. we've spoken to a lot of weapons experts and so, i mean, it's very -- at least they had the capability to raise a lot of havoc here domestically. so far the feds say primarily overseas. >> robert strange, when you look at this guy's history as rick mentioned, fought against the soviets in the late '80s, early '90s, convicted of a bank robbery in pakistan and in that court yelled this is a court of infid infidels.
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somebody's terror watch list or was he able to waltz back to north carolina and start up a drywall business. >> he wasn't on a watch list early on. we don't know who they are, when they are, or when they're going to hit us. they're all over the country. who would think this businessman, someone in the drywall business with his two sons and their friends could compile such a mass amount of weapons, put all this financing together, commute back and forth from pakistan and afghanistan, and really hate the americans so much that they would plan on doing something like this. >> exactly. >> mike, what happens is, you know, unfortunately, you've got young people around the country who are basically disenfranchised in the community and become extremists and become radicalized and they take action. it's at this point that the government hopefully can find them through an informant, through a wiretap. >> more on this come up. stay with us.
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a source now says it was dr. conrad murray who gave michael jackson that powerful iv of diprivan just hours before his death. and today, drug agents raided his home and clinic. they have the goods to bring criminal charges. and people who text while driving could be 23 times more likely to crash. just seconds glancing down is like driving the length of a football field blind. that wake you up a little bit? it's a deadly habit. got to stop. want to hear from you. call in, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. you can e-mail us cnn.com/primenews or text us at hlntv and start your message with the word prime. that's the way you can be heard.
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>> controversy, opinion, your point of view. this is "prime news." >> welcome once again. this is hour number two of "prime news." two big developments to talk about in the jackson case. first in las vegas hours ago, drug agencies with search warrants in hand went into dr. conrad murray's home and clinic. the home you see on the left, clinic, office on the right. looks like the walls could be closing in on dr. murray. last night a source close to the investigation confirmed it was dr. murray who gave michael jackson a powerful anesthetic in the very last hours of his life. we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. joining me now to talk about this, anita kay, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, jim moret from "inside edition," attorney, former cnn anchor and joining us again, a board certified and anesthesiologist. jim, when we talk about the raid
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going on at his home and the office there, the clinic in las vegas what, are they looking for here? what do we know? >> well, his attorney, dr. murray's attorney issued a statement a few minutes ago confirming that there was basically a four-hour search of dr. murray's home and now investigators have moved over to the office. he said what they left with were cell phones, hard drives, looking for medical records, any documentation. we know that they're looking for a paper trail. the dea is involved because they're looking specifically for prop pofollow and any tie between this drug, michael jackson and the doctor because it's not a prescribed drug, they're probably looking for lot numbers, purchase orders, checks, any form of payment but may be looking for other contacts with michael jackson, e-mails, correspondent and other drugs he may have prescribed to michael jackson. clearly this is a narrowing of the investigation and a continuation basically of the warrant issued last week where investigators in the warrant
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indicated that they were looking for evidence of man slotter. >> okay. with that said, is it going to be a difficult paper trail when you talk about propofol which is not a prescription? >> there must it be someone who purchased the drug. somebody had to buy it and pay for it. whether this doctor bought it or got it from another doctor, he had to get it somewhere. if he brought it to michael jackson's house or perhaps michael jackson got it through other sources. there has to be some paper trail that the dea is going it find. you can always go back to lot numbers. just a couple weeks ago, there was a warning with respect to a couple of lot numbers of propofol. that's how they identified the particular batches of medication. by lot number so you can go back to the manufacturer, see when it was made, where it was shipped to, who got it, who paid for it. >> francinea joins us from north carolina. your thoughts here? >> caller: yes. >> go ahead. >> caller: my question is, back in '93 when they raided
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neverland, if they found the dipri van in his home then, if it's not supposed to be administered in a home, why didn't they do an investigation on it then. >> jim, did they find diprivan back in 3e9? >> i believe they found something that they identified as a white milky substance and found iv tubes and iv stands. you know, that's a really good question. they did confiscate a lot of medication under different aliases and the reason why they didn't proceed is because they were focused solely on this molestation charge and these charges. the medication was not relevant to those charges, at least that's what the judge deemed, and you know, it was a lost opportunity really when you think about it because there was clearly a problem back then. >> let's bring in anita kay. anita, you know that's going to be part of -- again, let's say if we find out diprivan was the pain cause of death it was dr. murray who administered the
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last dosage, mof it from there. part of the defense is going to be i wasn't the first one to give him the stuff, ite. >> right. that will be his defense, i was doing what other people were doing, you can't say perhaps the dose i gave him was fatal, maybe it was years of this, and the first time maybe he won't have died but because this was on going for two years, those are the defenses to make. then when i put on my old prosecutor's hat i say kind of too bad for you because you were using something off label. it's not to be used this way. better. you have a higher standard of care than we would using diprivan. administered it, end of story. >> doctor, again, reiterate for us. it is irresponsible at the least to give someone diprivan, propofol in their own home, right? >> absolutely irresponsible. and you know, for the entire medical community is in shock
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over this if this did happen. i know it's speculation still at this point but this is definitely not a representation of the medical community and the society of anesthesia, this is something that is definitely definitely, we don't even talk about it because we just don't see it. over the past 15 years there has cases, 14 people died. it's rare. it can happen as we're talking about now. but it's definitely just something that's pretty absurd. >> okay. we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, more on the man in the cross hairs of authorities dr. conrad murray paid $150,000 a month to care for michael jackson. we'll dig deep near that relationship and take more of your calls at 1-877-tell-hln.
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we love to hear what you think about dr. conrad murray, michael jackson's personal doctor, the guy under the microscope right now. the one accused of giving the king of pop a powerful sedative right before his death. he brought in 150 grand a month just it take care of michael jackson. the singer had to plead with his concert promoter to keep him around. we dig deep near this relationship. >> dr. conrad murray was one of the last people to see michael jackson alive, a man the pop star insisted on having by his side. telling concert promoter aeg live only dr. murray would do for his upcoming shows. >> he says you don't understand.
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my body is a machine that fuels this whole business. okay? i need that kind of attention. and you know what? when michael jackson says that to you and there's this much at stake, you don't argue. >> murray became jackson's personal physician in may. and explained his lead to current patients as a "once in a lifetime opportunity." an opportunity with a salary of $150,000 a month. plus travel, hotel and per diem expenses. but how did he get to the singer's side in the first place? the two met in las vegas in 2006 when dr. murray treated one of jackson's children on the recommendation of a jackson bodyguard. murray's attorney told larry king their relationship went beyond a doctor and patient. >> let me clear up something. make sure we understand. dr. murray was not a doctor first. he was a friend first. they were close personal friends and michael jackson really treated him as people. >> conrad murray is 56.
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he graduated from the medical college in nashville and spent his internship and residency years in california. he operates clinics in nevada and texas. until signing on with jackson, most time was spent in las vegas. in a statement, his attorney said the cost to maintain murray's texas clinic "exceeds any collection." and documents obtained by cnn show his nevada practice also suffered financially some $400,000 in judgments for debt over the last couple of years. since his famous client's death, murray has not spoken publicly except through his lawyer. though everyone is waiting to hear what the man who found michael jackson unconscious has to say. erika hill, cnn, new york. >> thanks, erica. let's bring back our expert panel. want to go to dr. vimal lala. what struck me is the part where he's more friend than doctor.
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that's a red flag, isn't it. >> that is a red flag, yes, it is. >> when we talk about -- and as we put the dots together on this and you talk about with that said, meaning he could be more likely to administer something that he shouldn't in a case like this, and when row pofollow is administered, what kind of monitoring has to go on here, doctor. >> first of all, we need the standard of what we call asa monitors which is a pulse oxymeter to monitor the oxygen in the blood, an ekg to monitor the rhythm of the heart, a blood pressure monitor and something called a capnografhy to monitor carbon dioxide to make sure the patient is adequately breathing, mandatory when administering this medication. >> jim moret, we have not heard any of that was in michael jackson's bedroom, correct? >> that's correct. that doesn't mean they weren't in his bedroom. we have not heard any indication that they were though, you're
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correct. >> anita kay with all this said, how much will investigators dig into that relationship between michael jackson and dr. murray beyond the pro foe pofollow, but just what has gone on since 2006 in their relationship. >> they'll dig into it because it's something that is a little unusual to be friend first, then become personal physician and then looking obviously at the diprivan, but the other thing is he's making $150,000 a month. that's huge, huge money that he's making every month. and where is his allegiance? is it doctor first or friend where his friend is saying i need diprivan. you have to do this for me. so i think they're going to really, really look into all the relationship of all the doctors, but especially when you've got a doctor like this and someone's saying friend first, then doctor. >> you make a great point because michael jackson's one-time nurse/nutritionist cherilyn lee said that he had
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gone to her begging for this. and so if you're talking about a friend relationship there it, you might be more apt to listen. it's not rocket science when we piece the dots together. we have to leave it there. jim, dr. lala, we appreciate it. coming up, one that's going to get your attention, texting while driving. a new study says 23 more times to get in a wreck. will you stop in
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all right. we've all seen people doing it. you may have done it yourself, texting while driving. you've seen the people one hand on the wheel, one hand looking at the phone there. they can't put the blackberry down. i've done it. scared the heck out of me. i'm thinking what are you doing? it's hard not to see that message but we have to stop. why? new numbers out showing how dangerous this can be. let's go to a fellow texter, a maniac with the stuff.
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>> you called me out just like that? >> are you. >> it's true. it's true. this study hopefully will wake up people like me because just like you said, when you're doing it, you're telling yourself stop. maybe this get your attention. a new study finds drivers texting could be 23 times more likely to wreck than those who are not. researchers from virginia tech band. the debate will rage, mike, about whether or not that's the way to go.
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we can all agree that maybe we can at least voluntarily stop doing it. how about that. >> and richelle, i want to show everybody, you as well, how this can play out. a story we did, it was a guy driving a bus, june of 2000. remember that, san antonio, texas. there he is going for the cell phone. he's going to do texting. he's driving disabled people. what happens? you see right there. looked down for one second. you're going 30, 40 miles an hour, 55 in the example richelle used. next thing you know you have a crash. the lady in the car ahead of him still battling back and neck injuries. there's an example how quick an accident can take place. thank you. let's bring in guests now, steve kardian, motorcycle officer. he's seen what folks can do out there. also with us, ann mccart, senior vp for research the insurance institute for highway safety and stacy kaiser. maybe she can get in our mind-set why we do this and know
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it's wrong. steve, you've been on thes roads. >> i've got to start by saying i've investigated serious and fatal accidents by people talking on their phone, reaching for their phone and texting with their phone. so it is a problem for sure. >> ann, as we look at this, that crash risk so much greater. can we use this and do we need the ban across this country? it would seem so with those numbers. >> i think based on the research, it makes a lot of sense to ban cell phone use and texting. the challenge, however is to be able to enforce those laws to really get drivers to hang up. >> steve, how do we enforce that? that's a great point. i mean it, people as we note know it's wrong, know it's dangerous, still do it. how do we enforce it and pick these folks out? >> i think this study is going to prompt legislation both on the local, state and federal
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texting right now. >> it would seem to me, ann, i know in california, they have a ban. but the penalty just isn't that great. first offense is 20 bucks. addicted to the that's not really punitive. passing a lou is not enough. a law has to be enforced and publicized because if drivers don't believe there's a consequence of disobeying a law, they're not going to obey it. that's the challenge with a lot of these telecommunications devices. >> ann, what is the stiffest penalty of the 14 states that do ban texting and driving? for example. think relative to some other offenses, the penalties are pretty light. >> okay. let's get a call in real quick.
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lori in florida. your thoughts here? lori? not with us. all right. let's get stacy in. why do we do it? we know it's wrong. teenagers 87% know it's wrong. 68% do it anyway. that's probably the way it is with all of us. what's with us? >> i think there's two main reasons. first of all, we americans have interaction. to read what whole other piece that has to do with why the legislature stuff doesn't work. people need a real consequence. what i'm finding is till people actually are impacted by texting with a crash or a loved one getting hurt, they're not going to stop. >> real consequences. want to hear from you on this. call in 1-877-tell-hln. they said it would never last.
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an update for you on this story. what's going to happen to this little girl who police say was brutally gang raped by four boyce in phoenix, their ages 9 to 14, they're accused of luring her into a storage shed with bubble gum. she's 8 and they took turns assaulting her. the dilemma right now, her own family initially shunned her. the family and the suspects all from liberia and in liberia, rape was not a crime till swix. last week, the girl's mom went on camera, denying the attack ever happened. police say her dad first told them to take her away. today we learned the state is keeping the little girl in foster care for at least another three months. we have our expert panel
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standing by on this one. steve kardian, former police detective, paul penzone, director at child health, a non-profit group for victims of child abuse. anita kay, and thelma gutierrez from cnn joins us by phone reporting from phoenix. thelma is on the ground there. thelma, what is the latest with this little 8-year-old victim? >> mike, i can tell you that right now, what we've heard is that the little girl is in foster care. she's been removed from the home until experts can go in, assess the family, and determine whether or not it's safe enough to return her to that place. after all, they say that this is a child who went through this very terrible traumatic experience. and to go into -- to return to a family that perhaps mayion her may not believe her, would be absolutely terrible.
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so they are right now assessing the family. the father yesterday went with a liberian elder to meet with child protective services. it was the first meeting that they had had and he says he's trying to get his daughter back. so a lot of different things happening with this family right now. >> thelma, clarify. i'm correct in saying when this initially happened, we were all appalled because you'd expect an 8-year-old to be able to run into the arms of her family but she was shunned by all family members initially, right? >> that's exactly right. when you think of something like this happening, who would you turn to? who do you expect that you can turn to for moral support? it would be your family. but according to the police, there were statements that were initially made right after the event whereby they, the police heard that the family did not want her back. now, the father said that that was not true. he said he does want his daughter back. he feels that it was more a
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question of language. and that it was misinterpreted. he says he's trying to get her back right now. but you're right. initially, those reports were out there. >> yeah, because it was the sister said that she brought trouble. the mom denied it ever happened. so let's bring in paul penzone. would with child health here. paul, help us out here as someone who brings up a great point. are you to assess the family situation, whether or not they're ready to welcome her back with open arms or not. >> that's going to left to the experts from child protective services. we just focus solely on that little girl and her needs. although this case is quite polarizing because it has such extreme circumstances, it's not so uncommon to other cases we've seen that happen far too often. we want to make sure we focus on her needs first and then hope that the family, whatever their true position, is that eventually they'll come around and really give her the support she needs so it's not a
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requirement of the state. >> paul, what could she be going through right now? we're talking about an 8-year-old victim. i couldn't imagine the feelings of loneliness, not only to go through the attack but you're away from your family and she's going to be in foster care for another three months. >> just the incident itself is so difficult to overcome. then you look at the circumstances where the one place she should feel safe, she's not getting love and support at this time. that's where child help steps in. our facilities are designed to give her that support. we'll never be able to erase that incident from her experience. we hope we can teach her and love her enough that she can have a productive life going forward. >> how do you factor in the cultural issues with this, paul? >> well, my position on the cultural issue, i recognize that they came from a very difficult culture where violence was previously lent. i am a believer as humans we have the innate understanding if we're harming another human, it's not okay. the other cultural issue from
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child help's position is how do we make sure we can communicate with her in a manner that translates to her needs. therefore she can heal more quickly. as a society i think the culture of child abuse and sexual abuse for children is the bigger issue we need to focus on as an entire society, not just in micro coxs. >> anita kay, how is the law going to sort this one out? if you're a family, the family will probably get a lawyer and say that's our daughter, we want her back. it may not be best at least what we're seeing after the initial reaction. >> now we're getting conflicting reports where the father is saying it was a misunderstanding, a language issue. but the reality is we're trying to protect the 8-year-old girl. so even if maybe there was miscommunication, there are other reports saying no, she was shunned from the family and they were ashamed of her. cps needs to get to the bottom of that because this little girl needs so much to get through this. she will never completely get through this.
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this will be with her the rest of her life. if she's to go back to the family, she's going to need counseling. are her parents going to be involved and take her to counseling? are there going to be cultural issues where that is not something they will subscribe to? we hear stories time and time again of kids going back and something horrible happening. we need to make sure that this child will be safe if in fact, she goes home. >> guys, we're going to take a quick break. we'll talk to thelma again. she's been in that community where the girl lived and where the alleged incident took place. we'll talk to thelma about that, how we going to investigate whether or not the family is the best place for this little girl, whether or not it's best. and also, the attackers. we're talking about 9 through 14-year-olds. what are they going through? what punishment should they face? call in with your thoughts, 1-877-tell-hln.
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welcome back. you're a huge part of the show. i love talking to you on the phone. call in, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. e-mail us or text us at hlntv. one other way to get in on the conversation, become a fan of "prime news" on facebook. go behind the scenes with me, richelle, the rest of the "prime news" team. we'll let you know what stories we're working on, the angles we're taking.
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more info cnn.com/primenews. continuing our conversation about the brutal rape of an -year-old. before we go on, what really grabbed us here is when the 8-year-old's family initially shunned her. want to listen to i believe it's her mom and her sister talking right after the attack. >> did not happen to my daughter. nobody not touched my daughter. >> she always bring trouble. she always bring trouble. >> there you have it. again, mom initially denied it ever happened. sister basically blaming the 8-year-old saying she brings trouble. let's bring back thelma gutierrez, correspondent from cnn. she is in phoenix. thelma, have you had a chance to go to the apartment complex and talk to some of the people who know of this incident who live nearby the girl and where the incident took place? >> yes, i did, mike. i was there yesterday. and we went in with lasana
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kamara, a liberian refugee and he runs an organization to help refugees. when we went in, it was very interesting because what he explained to us is that it's a very tightly knit community. these are people who call each other brother and sister. their neighbors, brother and sister and they raise each other's children as though they're their own. and so initially, when the children were, the boys were arrested, the mother of the victim had come out and said that she wanted these boys released. she was actually at the perpetrator's home and consoling the mother. but he explained to me that the reason that all of this happens is that they rely very tightly knit. it's a very close community. people there are traumatized by this event but they say that you know, they escaped liberia to get away from this type of situation and yet, they come to america where they believe they're going to have this dream
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life and terrible incident like this happens. >> what's the feeling in that community, thelma? do they blame the girl? is that -- >> mike, it was really interesting because a few young men came up to us and they say we know the perpetrators. this could not have happened. there's no way that this could have happened. and as a as a matter of fact, i believe that the family said that the child was not touched and what they basically said that medical experts have told them that nothing had happened to the little girl. we talked to police and police said that was absolutely not true. they have forensic evidence that that child was attacked. and so there are rumor that are circulating through the community but within the neighborhood, there is a lot of sympathy for the perpetrators. on the other hand, you talk to people outside of that apartment complex within the liberian
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community, lots of sympathy toward this little girl. and as a matter of fact, mike, the liberian president was on the air on cnn on friday, and she said this is not cultural. if it is true that it happened, this is not cultural. this is a crime. >> yes, and there were reports that the four admit that had it had happened right afterward. i want to go to steve kardian, former police investigator. how do you investigate in a case like this? what we want to know, let's get back to the beginning. is it going to be safe at some point for this girl to go back with her family and live in the community again? >> it's going to be very difficult for her to return to that environment right now and the safety and well-being of that child is a primary consideration. i lecture across the country on effectual assault and prevention and i create instructors. have i instructors in africa. it's a very, very who are rick and difficult process that they're going through right now with sexual assault. it's only been a crime since the year 2006 i believe.
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>> exactly. okay. guys, thanks so much. great panel, great discussion on a very difficult topic. coming up, hulk hogan and his ex-linda, his name is linda bollea. her name is linda. the war is over. now they've come to a settlement. i want to bring in jane velez-mitchell on this one. how do you file for divorce right after your son gets involved in a serious accident? we'll talk about that. to be successful homeowners. bank of america is lending. whether it's a purchase, a refinance, line of credit... we're here to assist our customers. so we try to make it as simple as possible especially for that first time home buyer. there's a lot of opportunity right now with what's happening in our economy to really get out and educate., this is responsible lending. it's a lot more conservative than it once was. but in reality, it's a lot smarter. we, at bank of america, have simplified the process by offering the clarity commitment.
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welcome back. the ugly divorce between hulk hogan and his ex-wife linda is over. their 20-month battle quietly settled in a florida courtroom. here's some of the scenes today. all smiles. linda bollea even gave the
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hulkster a smooch on the cheek. this had been bitter. mom was dating her sonic's friend. nick went to jail for a serious car wreck. of course, the reality show, the family's been torn apart. i don't know if i would call this a happy ending. jane velez-mitchell host of issues" with jane velez-mitchell. one thing i never understood about this. >> just one? >> one of many. well put. one thing it's like how do you file for divorce right after your son gets involved in this serious car accident that left his friend john graziano injured for life? i didn't get that. go ahead, your thoughts. >> he did a lot of inappropriate things. he was roundly criticized for showing up at one of the court hearings wearing that dew rag. >> talking about hulk hogan himself. >> and making that were picked up essentially some people interpret it as blaming the victim or attacking this poor guy who is now on a ventilator as a result of this car accident. so, i think in the inappropriate
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behavior award category, he definitely is the winner. >> yeah. and but linda is not far behind. i believe her daughter. >> it's a competition. >> back and forth. she was hurt because she was what, dating some 19-year-old who was her one-time high school classmate? just selfish behavior is what we're seeing here, right? >> it's bizarre because we have this really ugly divorce where hulk hogan made that comment saying at least i didn't pull an o.j., sort of congratulating himself for not doing something extraordinarily violent in response to the fact that his wife was seeing somebody else. and people were just aghast at that. i mean, the family of the victims expressed their outrange that he would make a comment like that. now, suddenly, oh, we've got a settlement, we're going to do things as a family together, i mean, this is a seesaw from one
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inappropriate stream to the other. >> i'm just getting that picture there, well put. jane, i know you're going to be covering it on "issues" as well more on michael jackson. as we've followed the huge developments over the last couple of days, the raid of dr. murray's hope, clinic, sources close to the investigation letting us all know he gave michael jackson propofol hours before his death. it just seems like the walls are closing in on dr. murray. don't you think? >> it sure does. i also wonder, what are they looking for? do they not have a smoking gun that they continue to pull these raids? and remember, we're a month after michael jackson's tragic death. and so, my question is, is it too little too late? whatever was there, if there was anything there, it could very well be gone by now. and so i don't know that they have exactly what they need. and i do know that dr. murray's attorney has castigated these
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anonymous leaks so perhaps they're trying to provoke a little bit to see if something will come out because again, it's been month. remember, tmz is reporting that two women went to the houston self-storage facility the day of michael jackson's death, three hours before 911 was called, and they ultimately left with some files. so where are those files? >> exactly. if really makes you think about timeline. we'll investigate that. you hit on something just a minute ago, jane, that has puzzled me as well. if you're going to raid his houston offices, why aren't you raiding the home and the clinic at the same time? basically you would -- you served notice to dr. murray, hey, we're probably coming here next. >> i never understand any of this stuff. i really don't. i don't understand these time lags and these long delays. of course, i'm not a detective
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filling out search warrant forms and affidavits. it's a complex process so that our rights as citizens are protected and they're not just storming into homes willy-nilly without having probable cause to believe that a crime occurred. the length of time it's taken is extraordinary to me given the fact that he was there during the 911 call. >> yeah. it just seemed they should have followed one right after the other. what else are you covering tonight on "issues"? >> we're talking about michael vick and his conditional reinstatement. i am talking to an animal welfare advocate about her reaction to this given the fact that he has said he's a changed man. what proof, if any, as he offered? >> we somewhat differ on this one. the clock has run out on us. i'm sure we'll have another chance to talk about it. >> i'm sure we will. >> jane, we'll be watching "issues." stay with us. gecko vo: you see, it's not just telling people geico
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